Be Yourselfie
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Kustos izložbe: Péter Bencze
Umetnici: János Brückner, Austin Lee, Maja Đorđević, Botond Keresztesi
Pokušala sam da te “izguglam” pre našeg razgovora, ali tokom te akcije zapravo nisam uspela da pronađem nijednu tvoju fotografiju online. To mi je bilo dosta neobično i zabavno, budući da se baš ovom izložbom baviš pitanjem samoreprezentacije, identiteta, sopstva… Da li je to neki lični vid otpora prema društvenim mrežama i sveopštem instagram ludilu?
Péter Bencze: Nemam ništa protiv društvenih mreža, tako da nema otpora u pravom smislu te reči, ali jeste tačno da sam počeo da koristim šarene tačke- takođe i zato što volim Baldessarija– da sakrijem svoje lice od javnosti. Ne pitaj me zašto, došlo je nekako prirodno.
Veoma mi se dopada naslov tvoje izložbe… Na neki način, selfie se ispostavlja kao najzastupljeniji oblik samoizražavanja do sada (svidelo se to nama ili ne), i čini se kao da umetnost ne može to da ignoriše i ostane imuna?
PB: Mislim da je pre pet godina Oksfordski rečnik kao reč godine odabrao reč “selfie” i čini se da od tad još uvek napreduje. Tako da ne, ne može se nikako ignorisati ono što je oko nas. Takođe, izložba ima izuzetno jak fokus na različite vidove portretisanja. Primera radi, svi radovi Maje Đorđević su neki vid autoportreta, ona predstavlja sopstvenu mitologiju. One je herselfie, što daje kredibilitet njenoj umetnosti.
Kad smo već kod toga, ne znam kako tebi sve izgleda ali uz društvene mreže i ostalo, deluje da su nam životi u priličnoj meri obeleženi nekim lažnim sopstvima i identitetima… Konstantna self i selfie borba. Koliko ti imaš Maja u sebi, i kako ih miriš?
Maja Đorđević: „Ko sam?“, „ Odakle sam?“, „ Čemu težim?“ – nisam sigurna koliko se odgovori na ova pitanja pronalaze na društvenim mrežama. Na te iste “platforme” umesto traganja za sopstvom svoje slike šaljem u etar do najrazličitijih ljudi i mesta, pa svoju već prepoznatljivu devojčicu sa publikom konstantno preispitujem i modifikujem. S obzirom na to da je onaj pravi identitet za mene proces, svako parče Maje, kroz prizmu njene devojčice na radu, otkriva, raduje i formira njen identitet.
Fotografija je uvek između „sada“ -trenutka kada se posmatra i “onda”-trenutka kada je nastala, između ovde i tamo. Ipak, selfi se, zahvaljujući instant karakteru koji ima, uspostavio kao oblik relacionog pozicioniranja između posmatranog i posmatrača, koji približava te trenutke, pogotovo koristeći aplikacije kao Snapchat, WhatsApp i druge, koje promovišu i podržavaju vid komunikacije kojima instant razmenjujemo sve.
PB: Naše doba je u potpunosti vezano za ekstremnu prisutnost ( “Extreme Presence” [1]), potrebu da se bude svuda, u isto vreme. Gladni smo pažnje jer nam je neophodno da svaka naša akcija bude viđena, bez publike ona ne postoji.
Hajde da popričamo o efekatima digitalnih vizuelnih referenci na tradicionalne tehnike u slikarstvu današnjice. Kako ti vidiš tu sponu i njenu budućnost?
PB: Za mene je rad Botonda Keresztesija sjajan primer za to. On je majstor u predstavljanju savremenog digitalizovanog života na analogni način, koristeći sredstva i tehnike tradicionalnog slikarstva. U svom stvaralaštvu on koristi miks istorijsko-umetničkih referenci i atributa kulture svakodnevnice. Mislim da neće biti prevelikih promena u samoj tehnici slikanja, pre mi se čini da će se naš način razmišljanja izmeniti, kao i umetnikov. Sutra će biti isto: slikari će slikati slike.
Botond, “Hunting for Myself” (“Traženje samog sebe”) je naziv jedne od tvojih slika. Da li je ta potraga, za sopstvom, najteža?
Botond Keresztesi: Za umetnika, celokupan proces rada na nečemu znači da si u potrazi za nečim. Nečim što si zapravo ti, tvoje ponašanje, tvoja ličnost. I to je ono što nikada nećeš uhvatiti, spoznati u potpunosti, to je pomalo kao Heroin Hero iz South Parka. Ali s druge strane, ta večna potraga, jurenje nečega što nikada nećeš uhvatiti, je ono za čime tragaš. Lov je težak, ali ako shvatiš da je jelen brži od tebe, postaje mnogo lakše. O tome se zapravo i radi u mom radu, o tome da nikada nećeš imati viđenje sebe koje neko drugi ima, tu perspektivu, čak je i ogledalo paradoks. René Magritte, belgijski slikar nadrealizma, nam je prikazao te nerealne situacije percepcije, i napravio sam ovaj rad kao omaž njemu.
Kako uopšte definišeš sopstvo danas, kada se čini da svi imamo toliko različitih ličnosti u sebi (privatnu, wannabe, javnu… )?
BK: U poslednjih 30 godina (koliko postojim) samoidentifikacija se znatno promenila. Od pada Berlinskog zida i samim tim i Sovjetskog Saveza, milioni su trebali da promene svoj način razmišljanja u trenutku. Za mene je bilo prirodno da živim u doba ranog kapitalizma u Istočnoj Evropi. Rođen sam u Rumuniji, a u Mađarsku sam se preselio kada mi je bilo 3 godine. To je bio drugi problem identiteta zato što sam u Rumuniji za njih, bio Mađar, i obrnuto, što je bila prilično čudna središnja pozicija, ni ovde ni tamo. Nakon tih šokova trebalo je da se susretnem sa promenom protoka informacija, kompjuteri su se pojavili negde kada sam imao oko 6 godina, čini mi se, a zatim i mobilni telefoni za širu populaciju. To je proces koji još uvek traje i svake godine se suočavamo sa nekim novim sistemom koji treba prihvatiti kao što su društvene mreže, tona memova, virtuelna realnost. Čovek današnjice ima mnogo identiteta, avatara, profila, počevši od kompjuterskih igrica, pa zatim profila koje imamo za prijatelje, za poslovne krugove, tajne profile. Danas, ne moraš ni da ideš u banku ili poštu, čak ni da izađeš iz kuće. Dovoljno je da imaš smart telefon, aplikaciju ili tatinu karticu. Život postaje jednostavniji, ali postoji jedna stvar, ja se uvek izgubim u tom lavirintu računa i profila, zato što uvek zaboravim proklete šifre.
Sad kada je Botond pomenuo “gubljenje” u svemu, možda zvuči suludo ali kada sam prvi put videla tvoje radove pao mi je na pamet deo jedne pesme. U pitanju je: „I’m not a man of too many faces, the mask i wear is one.“ Da li misliš da danas svi imamo masku? Šta krijemo, i od koga?
János Brückner: Haha, sve intuitivne asocijacije su dobrodošle, pogotovo iz pop kulture, budući da su to veoma deskriptivne opšte metafore. Da se vratimo na maske: mislim da su ljudi oduvek imali više lica, budući da je “skrivanje sebe” gotovo društvena odredba, propis i snažna profilišuća sila. Moguće da je čak i pitanje evolucije. Skrivanje straha da bi izgledao kao jaka, neustrašiva osoba; izbegavanje nekih osnovnih životnih tema: sve je to gotovo svakodnevna rutina. S druge strane, ljudi su oduvek imali tu snažnu potrebu da spoznaju sebe ili svoju sudbinu (“Gnothi seauton” – “Spoznaj samog sebe!” je bio glavni “slogan” proročišta u Delfima u antičkoj Grčkoj). Tako da, s jedne strane imamo društveni pritisak da predstavimo sebe ovako ili onako, a sa druge apsolutnu fascinaciju upoznavanjem sebe i otkrivanjem pravog sopstva. Šta je u sredini? Jako mali broj iskrenih i verodostojnih ljudskih trenutaka. I to je ono što me interesuje.
Tvoj rad “Sleeping deathmask” gotovo bolno podseća na površno postojanje, skicu život, življenje bez stvarnog postojanja- lice bez tela je nešto što veoma lako možemo da prepoznamo i povežemo sa online životima. Šta za tebe predstavlja ljudsko telo danas, u svetu punom veštačkih identiteta i online postojanja?
JB: Suština te serije je, kao što i sama kažeš, da istakne tu prazninu: da pronađe taj trenutak kada je osoba samo nesvesno telo, ili čak ne ni to, nego njegova zamena. Magija u vezi sa tom zamenom i prazninom je da skrene pažnju na onaj osećaj kada osećaš da bi neko trebao da bude tu, ali kao da nema ničega. Lično, zanimalo me je da pokušam da vidim sebe kroz tuđe oči, iz perspektive drugog- da iskusim kako je biti to ništa. Ta čudna distanca je prisutna u svim komunikacijama koje ostvarujemo preko interneta, čemu treba pridodati i činjenicu da naši uređaji mahom koriste naš vid, sluh i pomalo dodira prstiju. Takozvana zapadna tradicija voli dihotomiju telo-um, i zbog toga zaboravlja na telo.
[1] title of a solo show by János Brückner @ Institute of Contemporary Art, Dunaújváros
Before our interview, I’ve tried to google you but actually during that mission I couldn’t find any photo of you. It is funny since your dealing with this topic of self representation, identity etc… Is that your personal resistance to all Instagram and social media madness?
Péter Bencze: I’m not against of social media at all, so there is no resistance, but that’s true I started using colorful dots – also because I love Baldessari – to hide my face away from the public. Don’t ask why, it came naturally.
I like the title of your show very much… In a way, selfie is by far the most expansive form of visual self expression (whether we like it or not), and it seems that art cannot really afford to ignore it?
PB: I think 5 years ago, when Oxford Dictionaries’ word of the year was “selfie” and it’s seems like that it’s still booming. So you just can’t ignore what is around us. Also the show has a strong focus on different kind of portraiture. For example to me, all Maja Đorđević paintings are some kind self-portraits, she paints her own mythology. She is being herselfie, which gives credibility to her art.
Speaking of that, I don’t know how do you feel about everything, but it seems that our lives became increasingly marked by artificial identities, new selves etc… Like constant Self vs Selfie battle… How many Majas do you have, and how do you keep them all together?
Maja Đorđević: „Who am I?, „Where do I come from?“, „Where am I heading to?“ – I am not sure that answers to those questions are to be found on social media. Insted of searching for myself there, I send my paintings to those „platforms“ and they reach very wide public and different places, so in contact with people, I constantly modify and question my recognizable girl. Due to that real identity is process for me, every piece of Maja is constituted, explored and established through the prism of her girl in works.
Photograph is always between „now“ of the viewing and „then“ of depicted scene, here and there. Now, selfie, by being very instant, shows up as a form of relational positioning between bodies of viewed and viewer, especially using digital networks and aps such as Snapchat and WhatsApp which promote and exploit that. Any thoughts on that?
PB: Our age is about “Extreme Presence” [1], to be everywhere in the same time. We are hungry for attention, because our performance need to be seen, without the viewer it doesn’t exist.
Let’s talk about effects of digital visual references on classical technique of painting nowadays… How do you see that connection, and future of it?
PB: To me art of Botond Keresztesi is a great example for that. He is a master of showing our digitalized life in an analog way with the tools of traditional painting. During his practice he uses a mixture of art historical references and attributes of daily culture. I think there won’t be so much change in the technique of painting rather I would say that our mindset is changing, so as painter’s. Tomorrow will be the same: Painters will be painting paintings.
Botond, “Hunting for Myself” is the name of one of your paintings. Is the hunting for oneself the most difficult one?
Botond Keresztesi: As an artist, the whole process of doing something means you are searching for something. Something which means you itself, your behaviour , your personality. That’s what you’ll never get , it’s like Heroin Hero a bit from the cartoon series, South Park. But on the other hand, that whole life hunting for something that you never going to get means the thing what you are searching for. Hunting is difficult, but if you realize that the deer is faster than you , it’s much more easier. That’s what my painting is about, that you never get the perspective that a different person has on you, even with a mirror that’s a paradox. René Magritte, a Belgian surrealist painter showed us this unreal situations of perception, so I made this memento for him.
How do you define „self“ at all, nowadays when it seem that all of us have so many personalities (real one, wannabe one, artificial social media one etc…)?
BK: In the last 30 years (since I’m existing) self identification changed a lot. From that moment when the Berlin wall broke down and with it , the Soviet Union as well, millions of people should change their thinking from one moment to another. For me it was a bit natural to live in the early capitalism in eastern Europe. I was born in Romania, then I moved to Hungary when I was 3 years old. That was another problem of identity because in Romania I was Hungarian and then the opposite, it was a weird in between situation. After these shocks, I had to face with the changing of information, the computer appeared in my life when I was 6 years old I guess, and then mobile phones for a wider amount of people. It’s a process which is still ongoing, and every year you get some new system to face with it, like social media, tones of memes, virtual reality. The present human has a lot of faces, of course so many avatars, profiles starting with computer games, then profile for your friends, for your private family, another one for job centers and a secret one for the geek community . Nowadays you don’t have to go to a Bank or Post office, even outside the house. It’s enough to have a smart phone, an application or your father’s Bank card. Life is getting easier, but there is one thing, I usually get lost in the labyrinth of accounts , because I always forgot the f…ing passwords.
Now when Botond had already mentioned “getting lost”, it might sound silly but part of one song came across my mind, when i saw your works. It is „I’m not a man of too many faces, the mask i wear is one.“ Do you think that nowadays everyone has one? What are we hiding, and from who?
János Brückner: Haha, all intuitive ideas are welcome, especially from pop culture since these are very descriptive common metaphors. Back to the masks: I think that people always had various faces because ‘hiding yourself’ is such a basic shaping force and regulation of society. It can be even an evolutionary thing. Hiding fears to look like a strong person, not talking about certain very basic aspects of life: everyday routines. On the other side, people always had this strong desire to get know themselves or their destiny (“Gnothi seauton”- “Know yourself!” was the main commercial line of the Delphi Oracle in ancient Greece). So on the one hand the social pressure to show yourself as this or that, on the other hand the fascination to get to know yourself. What is in the middle? The very few honest and self-identical moments of a human. And this is what I am interested in.
Your work “Sleeping deathmask” painfully reminds on superficial existence, an outline of life -existing without true existence, having a face without a body- something easily connected to life online. How do you feel about human body nowadays in a world full of artificial identities and online existence?
JB: The core idea of that series, as you say, was to stage that emptiness: to find the moment where a person is only an unconscious body, or not even that, just the replacement of that. This magic with the replacement and emptiness is to point to that feeling when you feel there should be someone but there seems like to be nothing. Personally I was interested in seeing myself through a third eye, to get a far perspective – to experience with being that nothing. This strange distance is present in the interactions I experienced through the internet, add to that the fact that our personal devices mostly use our sight, hearing and a bit of the touch of the fingers. The so called western tradition likes the body-mind dichotomy and therefore to forget about the body.
[1] title of a solo show by János Brückner @ Institute of Contemporary Art, Dunaújváros
